Montana ethics?

I agree, but a fine line may exist. While I see nothing to gain in widespread, national publicity (okay, blatant hype), I have greatly appreciated the efforts of the local guidebook authors (locally published and distributed guidebooks, PDF's passed by email, hand drawn topos, etc) for the beta. Without some distribution of information regarding new areas and routes, the climbing opportunities may be very limited. In fact, I am looking forward to the rumored upcoming rock guide. The difference is in the motivation of the author. Traditionally, in Montana, I believe the 'guidebook' has been mostly a labor of love by the author, a documentation of an areas unique history, and a gift to the local climbing community. Many secrets have remained secrets due to a respect for our limited climbing resources and a desire to keep Montana as it is, not Colorado or the East Coast. The guidebook in question, while I own it, use it, and like the pretty pictures, does seem to have been born from other motivations. It does seem a shame to have the entire local climbing community pay for the ambitions of one.

What tq presents is a very good point, and I have spent some time thinking about this and discussing it with others. take a look at this post in the Glacier section: http://montanaice.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=121 I'll not repeat here everything that was disucssed there, but I will summarize my points: 1) Yes, increased publication about an area is one of the ingredients to increased use- thereby detracing from the experience. 2) Other ingredients are necessary to really have much effect - like a population center. Colorado has a lot of crowded climbing because BOTH there is a lot of info written about it AND there are a lot of people. 3) Even armed with beta, climbers who "Ain't got that Do-Re-Mi" are still going to have a high adventure in many places, like the Beartooths. And the nature of climbing in places like the Beartooths makes it hard to accurately and usefully describe the climbing there. 4) Conditions change quickly; mountain weather is not perfect here in the summer; and people actually gotta be there if they are going to do the climbing- regardless of whether they have the info. 5) In summary, I like the adventure that comes from only word-of-mouth beta. Until Outside Magazine come out with " 25 sweet alpine rock climbs in the Beartooths" on the front cover, I dont' think the adventure climbs in Montana will be getting too crowded.

I suppose the most obvious or glaring contradiction with your position would simply be, what are you doing on this website to begin with? In a state where one needs only to live here a little longer than the latest serge of transplants to consider themselves a local, your premiums is shall we say, arrogant! The overused titles of ?Montana Local? or ?Native? is nothing more than semantics?. Cultural History exists precisely because of shared knowledge and information. Those who possess knowledge and information must understand and accept the fact that it?s a double-edged sword.

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Hello, This is my first visit to this website and I was psyched to check it out because I would love to come visit. I saw the post on ethics and thought it would be a good way to see what was going on in the climbing community. I was disappointed to see the opinions expressed in this thread and the "keep capitalism out of Hyalite" thread. While I can understand the sentiments expressed (I live in an area that is subject to high seasonal levels of tourism) I think they are misguided and narrow-minded. Just because you got there first doesn't mean you own the place. Most "locals" with such attitudes are not FROM the area they so desperately want to keep secret. Now that they've found it, they don't want anyone else to. If you are truly a "local", whatever that means, then you will know of plenty of other secret places to escape to when the masses descend during ice festivals etc. As much as I despise the tourists here sometimes, I am always friendly and welcoming to visiting climbers. After all, we all enjoy this same crazy sport. Like it or not, there are more climbers than there were 10 years ago, regardless of where you go. We all had to start sometime and we are all visiting climbers somewhere (unless you never leave your safe little bubble). It is the elitist attitudes expressed in these posts that bum me out more than any visiting climbers ever will. I still hope to come visit sometime. I hope that i'll be met with the same friendliness that I show to people at my local crags. I am sure that I will. It is nice to hear prominent climbers like JoJo and Conrad respond to the "capitalism" post. I bet you could learn a thing or two from them...

The primary purpose for limiting information to routes and conditions is not to keep other people out - it's to preserve an experience that exists here for all climbers. What's unique about MT climbing is the sense of discovery. As Juannole/ gringo malo likes to point out, "You never know if you've done a first ascent in Glacier." And, if you keep yer gob shut, neither does the next guy/ gal. That's a rare experience in the lower 48. IMHO, preserving that is not elitist - it's the opposite, because it allows more climbers - both today and in the future - to have that experience. It doesn't limit discovery to climbers who can afford month long trips to the Himalayas or Antarctica, or to a few grizzled professors back in the day. A lot of people will argue that if you want a sense of discovery, then just don't read guidebooks or BBs like this one. But that's like driving down the median cuz you don't like the highway - the highway and the traffic on the highway are still there and the experience is changed for everyone. There's no need for "do-re-mi," nor any way to develop it. You can move on to the next unknown place, but sooner or later, that's developed too. I've made these and other arguments in the past; see the threads in the Glacier forum. And others have made plenty of counter arguments there as well. It's a healthy debate, not an anti-locals crusade, and one in which anyone who's interested in climbing here can - and should - participate. The wild character to climbing in MT is not something we can take for granted or postpone taking care of til the day Outside does a cover article or the Gallatin and Flathead valleys have 250k people. I argue that we as climbers can maintain or improve the sense of community through BBs like this one without destroying a sense of discovery while we're climbing. I believe we can be circumspect and careful about what we post and how many details we share. What's the minimum you can post that leaves the next climber with a similar experience? It's not an all or nothing thing - we don't have to choose between crawling into a cave or vomiting up details. blase

Well, I certainly hope that this whole argument isn't going to get started all over again....maybe we should all just agree to disagree. And may I make a suggestion? As Blase brought out, ones can make brief postings, and then if someone wants further details, this forum allows you to send [private messages] to the person that did the posting. If they want to then puke out the information, then they can. Maybe this would eliminate some of the problems that can arise from information being shared in this format. And if everyone is not able to cooperate (which I'm sure there will be some that don't), as I've said before, then just choose to not read those entries. I would wager that most of those that are mad about the postings will at some point be curious and click on them anyway. caw

At the risk of igniting something best left alone, I've gotta add .02 to this The attitude of protecting areas from too much press and pressure isn't Montana's alone. I've seen it in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Vermont, New York, Californina, France, Kenya(yep even there)--almost everywhere, really. And, among others, it's come from folks who've pioneered a lot of routes in those areas. So let's not pretend that trying to protect a favorite climbing area from traffic is outlandish (as was suggested in the old 'kill this forum' post). It's common in other outdoor activities as well. Do fisherman give up the locale of their favorite hole/spot to any joe who asks? How about posting your favorite powder stash on a website? So, certainly there's some precedent to keeping you favorite spot secret, in climbing and in other pursuits. I'll admit that it's nice to have info when you're new to an area, but there's nothing wrong with trying to keep some spots to yourself and your friends. And I think that's something everyone does in one outdoor sport or another. In the end, there are plenty of places with plenty of published beta to climb in MT. But there are unadvertised spots too, visible even from the Gallatin Valley. In fact, upon asking an 'old grizzled professor' about one of those spots, he replied, "I think a few folks have climbed there, but I just don't know much about it." Trust me on this--it was a really bad lie. But did I begrudge him that? Hell no! I understood that he wasn't going to give up a sweet unknown area to someone he'd just met at the bottom of a climb. Putting a climbing area in a guidebook or on an internet site gives up areas to a lot more anonymous people. And yeah--sometimes it's great to share that kind of thing. But other times you want to keep areas to yourself--after all, the reason most folks move to Montana is to get away from crowds. So don't begrudge the folks that say "Hold up--how much do we really want to advertise areas like the Absarokas or Glacier?" They have a valid point. In fact, I'll bet that everyone (salamander icefarmer and ponyMT included) knows some area related to climbing, skiing, etc, that they would rather not be overrun and therefore not be advertised in magazines or on the internet. --Jon

I just feel fortunate to call Montana home.

[quote="cleavis"] Traditionally, in Montana, I believe the 'guidebook' has been mostly a labor of love by the author, a documentation of an areas unique history, and a gift to the local climbing community. Many secrets have remained secrets due to a respect for our limited climbing resources and a desire to keep Montana as it is, not Colorado or the East Coast. The guidebook in question, while I own it, use it, and like the pretty pictures, does seem to have been born from other motivations. It does seem a shame to have the entire local climbing community pay for the ambitions of one.[/quote] i have two experiences working with guides. i was one of those guys on rockclimbing.com who posted up first ascents and new areas, but i always left it up to the imagination as to where to go, not getting super specific with directions. i have been from the school of the adventure is almost as important as the climb. anyone remember the map of the south fork? anyone remember dwights climbing guide for butte? the drawings, the whole unknown, even though it was on the map, was 3/4s of the experience. on that note, i worked with the powers that be on the butte guide, and had a little bit to do, c/o some people i worked with on the ice guide. it makes the ego feel good that my name got in print, but it also kinda makes things feel like less of a discovery. i dunno. i grew up climbing in montana, have been climbing here for 10+ years, and have amazing experiences, but it can be nice to look in a book and find something you know will be there, rather than walk all the way back somewhere to not find something. everyone has their opinion. montana isn't colorado, or canada, or any other major destination.... yet... but i hate to break it to ya, it will come, eventually. the question is, will those of us in the old guard hold the newcomers to our ethics, or not?