keep capitalism out of hyalite canyon!

The "anti-capitalism" post reveals several opinions of this person (and others that might feel the same) that, in my view point, are completely misguided: First - the "signature" reveals a hint to their true motivation: "...montana sucks, stay away!" The capitalist rant about climbing shops (a poor choice of targets to begin with) is a weak attempt to hide this person's true desire to keep Hyalite (if not the whole state) to themself. A "local's ownership" attitude of the sport's (or the state's) resources is hypocritcal and unproductive. More on this later. Second - both shops lose money on the demos and ice festivals. The sales reps make extra trips from as far away as WA and UT, spending money out of their own pockets to be here and hand out gear (and often have to pay for the "lost" gear that is inevitable). Of course, they all hope to make it up in gear sales by turning people onto ice climbing. Observing from the outside just how many ice tools and crampons actually get sold at local shops, I would venture to guess it is, at best, a break-even proposition. To call outdoor shops a "priceless resource" then to say they don't need to "intentionally" recruit climbers is hypocritical and shows an ignorance to just how hard it is for those shops to stay afloat, or at the very least to continue to carry the un-profitable, low-margin, slow turning categories like climbing gear. Specialty shops and the reps that serve them are all about customer and community service. Although ice demos are specific to outdoor stores, their overall concept is deeply rooted to the success of the family business heritage. Without events like these, we will some day be left looking for our local climbing gear at WalMart or mail order. Local shops keep the economy generated, here in the state. Third - To say we shouldn't do demos in Hyalite simply because it has a limited resource is nearsighted, elitist, and nothing more than a "not-in-my-backyard" attitude. On a more practical note, had we not the number people in this community that care about ice climbing in Hyalite we would not have generated over 900 public comment letters to the Forest Service regarding the road travel plan. This was more than any other user group, by far. As the primary organizer of the letter writing campaign, I can honestly report that many of the letters were generated directly through people's experiences at the ice festivals and demos. If there were not such a broad community of ice climbing support, it is highly likely the road would be CLOSED at Langhor next season. How world-class will Hyalite feel if you can't get to it? It would be a much more "limited" resource were this to happen. Fourth - this post is coming from someone that obviously already ice climbs and has either forgotten how hard it can sometimes be to "break into" climbing or they otherwise had the opportunity to learn handed to him or her on a golden platter. For most people, it has never been as easy as "just figuring it out." I have seen dozens of people with more natural talent than I ever had get inspired with the sport at the festivals and demos; only to see it quickly fizzle through frustration and intimidation. The intimidation comes from the ever-cliquish nature of the climbing community. That is, we all have our group of partners and friends and we are ALL guilty of exclusion at some level or another. Observe any neophyte in the parking lot or at a shop trying to break through the juggarnaut. It is full of everything from jargon, to intense personal experiences, to insider understanding, to outright arrogance. The bottom line is that most of us, myself included, were incredibly fortunate to be able to persue this passion and, at one time in our life, had the right combination of mentors, timing and situations to take it up and start the long learning curve. Few people are as lucky. It's way too easy for us that have done it for years to forget how we all started. More often than not, it was somehow connected to someone at a gear shop, a guide, or some class - all of which would have never been possible without the commercial aspects of the climbing industry (including catalogues, books, magazines, demos and festivals). Plus, if it weren't for the growth of the sport through festivals and demos around the country and Europe we would all still be ice climbing with straight-shafted, ice bludgeons! Fifth - Of course we would all like people "to stay away" from Montana. But unfortunately most of the people moving here are not ice climbers. As an example, have you tried approaching the Beehive near Big Sky? We used to be able to park at the upper lot. Now we have to stop at the bottom of the hill at least a mile or more farther away from the mountain. I know this is a small example, but the point is still valid. The reason for this change is a huge, multi-million dollar home now built in the old parking lot and the upper road is now private. Is this a result of demos or other "capitalist" activities at local shops? I think not. Trying to keep people out of the state or covertly limiting the means for more people to learn about the things we value and love (like climbing and wilderness) only feeds the problem. What I mean, is the second homes and oodles of development (capitalism) will always be streaming into the area. By not encouraging like-minded people to pick up the cause(s) through activity, which leads to caring (ice climbing is but a small but none-the-less relevant example), only accelerates the schism between un-controled development and realistic conservation. Anyone thinking otherwise is in for a long, lonley and bitter life. I believe only by promoting climbing and wilderness ethics, teaching others to care about it, and pulling more members into the tribe; will we be able to protect and conserve our right and ability protect it for ourselves and our children. And if you really want to get on a soapbox: Only by creating jobs in grassroot, family businesses can we even begin to compete with the influx of large corporations, big box stores, and second home owners who buy massive ranches shut them off to the public but pay zero taxes in this state. The more this happens, the harder it becomes to create a postive business atmosphere on a state level that allows "locals" to create a life and provide for their families. By fighting capitalism, promoting isolationism, and trying to force this state back into the 19th century is the quickest way to let "those from away" take control and further exploit our environment and resoureces. Picking on ice climbing is not the forum to have this battle. I believe it to be quite the opposite and ice climbing should be promoted. The world needs MORE climbers. In Slovakia, 30% of the population are active climbers. Think for a moment of life in the United States if 30% of us climbed and cared about it. No question, there would be more people doing it and there might be lines on some routes; but I think it's hard to not argue that the fight to protect and conserve our resources would not be as tough. Not to mention, the true economic impact of this stewardship would be more obviously felt and valued - which, in my mind, is the crux of the whole matter to begin with. And finally - I believe, everyone should take responsibility for their views and use their real name. Respectfully, Joe Josephson.

The junk show that Hyalite is becoming? Get real- if you're alluding to the overcrowding of routes, I'm going to assume you've looked no further than the Genesis and Mummy areas. There exist plenty of good routes that don't see much traffic; you've just got to walk a bit more to get to them. As for the ice festivals: as JoJo mentioned, getting into ice climbing isn't the easiest thing to do. It's not like rock climbing, where you can go out, buy some shoes, some chalk, and go flail up some random boulder- ice climbing is quite an investment, and for those who are interested in it, the ice fests provide an avenue by which these people can see whether or not they enjoy ice climbing. I think it's safe to say that if a person does not enjoy it, they're not going to continue with it- as you (free_will) mentioned, ice climbing is not for everyone. But what's wrong with trying it out? I learned more at last year's ice fest than I would have learned by spending the entire season working on it by myself. It definitely helped me get off on the right foot, which has allowed me to continue to ice climb on a somewhat regular basis. There are my thoughts for the day, take them for what they're worth.

I?m truly amazed at how frequently politics enters ice-climbing forums. Judging by the dribble posted by free-will one might surmise that he?s somewhat of a malcontent who?s plagued by false guilt, having been raised in an affluent country. Even his pseudonym (a form of self loathing) could be construed as an attempt to separate himself from a privileged up bringing. You mentioned that you spend most of your week in a lab. Whether you?re there as a student or an employee, either way it champions the principles espoused by capitalism. Capitalism is what supports your extravagant (compared to most of the world) lifestyle. And look at what you chose to do in your free time, ice-climbing. Not exactly the cheapest form of recreation. How about the gear you buy, do you realize that every dollar you?ve spent on equipment has gone to support capitalism? I mean lets face it, how much climbing gear was made in the USSR. Don't get me wrong, capitalism does have problems associated with it (i.e. greed) however it has proven to work and made the US economy the envy of the world over, whereas socialism has proven time and time again to fail. A person who suffers from ?liberal elitism? is in a constant struggle to reconcile their lifestyle with the persona they wish to convey! If I may suggest, leave political references out of this forum and go climb Winter Dance. In the long run it?s far easier.

Yo Jim, what do you think about establishing a catch-all forum category for non-climbing vagaries before this site becomes just another internet bull-shit magnet saturated with trolls? I'm all for constructive community dialogue, but this stuff is killing my buzz. I just wanna know what's in. The preceding anonymous rant about capitalism, ice-demos and crowds is ridiculously obtuse. Bottom line: conditions are good, and crowds-what crowds? I finally got my ass out of Missoula and spent last Saturday through Monday climbing in Hyalite. Despite historic conditions and a parking lot full of cars each day, we never saw another party while we flailed about on the upper Mummies, Avalanche Gully/Responsible Family Men, and in the Come and Get it area. Classic climbs, easy drive and approaches--no other climbers and nothing remotely resembling a ?hook fest.? In the conditions/beta groove: Mummy III went on all rock left of the ice with TCUs, RPs and blades. Probably not the most desirable variation, but a spicy trouser filler for mortals with some interesting movement. Did I just say spicy trouser filler? That was weird.

i have to agree with jojo on the fact that it is SO hard to get "into" ice climbing. Im from alabama and do you think there is ice here? no. i moved to bozeman to go to school for a semester(i have since moved back to alabama for what awful reason i dont know) and i may NEVER have gotten the opportunity to try ice climbing had it not been for one of the ice demos. now im in love with it(though i cant readily do it down here) and i cant wait to move back to bozeman so that i can get more "into" it. So, to everyone at barrell and nltc, i say thank you for making my ice climbing demo a success and a super fun time. i read this forum everyday to keep up with whats going on, and i appreciate what yall are doing. thanks again.

Hello Michael, Thanks for your insight and comments regarding the ice demos. Having volunteered my time at several events I have, perhaps, a different perspective. Climbing is my avocation and vocation - I am fortunate in this regard and hope to never take it for granted. Sharing the mountains with others, introducing them to the mountains, and teaching them the skills to travel in the mountains is a source of intrinsic gratification. When I started climbing there were no gyms, festivals or on line forums. We had mentors who showed us the ropes. We were bound by the one inch web, Hexes, oval 'biners and a desire to challenge ourselves. This same ethos remains with me today. If I can pass on what others gave to me... well, in the long run this is more important than having done a a certain climb. As I grow older I find the most rewarding aspect of our sport is the community climbing brings. From far away places to local crags, the understanding and friendship that climbers share is unique. Climbing is dangerous and this risk brings us all closer. The more we can do to foster friendship, the happier we all are. Please stop by the Montana Ale Works in Bozeman on the first Tuesday evening of each month. The SWMCC has a loose gathering of climbers and those interested in climbing. We share a few laughs, look at a few slides and plan future climbs. Be good, be kind and be safe. Conrad PS: If the crowds are too much may I suggest night climbing. As we've all climbed the trade route numerous times, a night outing increases the challenge, hones your skills and is sure bet to avoid lines.

Thanks for the pointer Conrad, I'll be working on my skills (in the dark)- probably alone... I've been trying to get people to do this with me for a while now but I haven't found an overwhelming positive response. Let me know if you have any good suggestions. With my busy schedule any climbing is good climbing. As for the capitalism and the demo's I think Conrad hit the mark - it is about community and getting people exposed to it. Now that rental Ice gear is unavailable at NLTC, (BARREL too???) it is going to be hard to get people out climbing to experience what it is like. Not all people make entirely irrational decisions like I do and decide to throw money at a new hobby. Having a community will now be more important that ever so we can pool our resources (ie boots) and share this pasttime of ours with the generations to come. O-

I just wanted to pass along that Barrel Mountaineering continues to rent a full selection of ice climbing gear...tools, crampons, boots, harnesses and helmets. Chris Naumann