Illegal Cabin

Submitted by Doug Chabot on Mon, 12/19/2005 - 20:17
Some MSU students built a cabin in the woods off the Grotto Creek trail for use this winter. It was a costruction project--windows, metal roof, wood stove, etc. They got busted last week by the USFS Law enforcement. This is bad news and a black eye for the ice climbing community, especially during the sensitive travel plan process. We've been going out of our way to explain the special nature of Hyalite and how we all treasure this rare resource--climable ice! While the FS realizes that this was done by a few rogue individuals, it still hampers our efforts to be seen as responsible recreationists. Let's keep our scene tight! Be respectful to the land, each other and all users. Let's not give the FS any more reasons to view climbers with suspicion. The following paragraph was from an email forwarded to me. The names and source are anonymous, but they still convey the seriousness of the situation. "XX and I caught 5 individuals in this cabin early Sunday morning, the same cabin that YY reported finding this summer. The cabin had more improvements to it (i.e. insulation, caulking, etc.). We can't say too much more about it at this point other than two of them will be going before the U.S. Magistrate in Missoula this coming Thursday. We are presently dealing w/ the U.S. Attorney's Office on the case. Two others in the group were fined for marijuana possession. All five of them were ice climbers." On a separate note, there were two climbers missing on Saturday eve and Gallatin County SAR got called out. While 7 folks wandered around Hyalite drainage all night at -25F looking for them, they were cozy in the cabin. I can't blame them really. They were late getting down, there were no more cars, it was cold and their ride left prematurely to sound the "missing climbers" alarm. Let's take care of ourselves out there. It's a small world and we all need a hand sometimes. [img]http://montanaice.com/forums/user_images/HyaliteCabin.jpg[/img]

Thanks Doug for reminding us of our obligation and responsibility to care for Hyalite ice climbing. Both local and visiting climbers would be impacted by any restriction of access caused by illegal and selfish use. One can bivy out in a tent most anywhere in the drainage (be aware of avalanche zones), rent the Window Rock Cabin from the FS (a 15 minute stroll to the parking lot) or keep climbing (if you are really jonesing). A structure as above pollutes our watershed and, cozy as it might be, creates a visual reminder of human presence. Does the FS need help getting this shack off the public land? As wild and big as the drainage seems, we share it with many other people. Having the canyon closed for slack return times and ditched rides affects many users. As climbers we did no one a favor the other day when the canyon was closed. Have a plan. Co-operate and communicate. Respectfully, Conrad

In my opinion this only demonstrates the popularity of the canyon and the need for the road to by plowed but I think we need to communicate the point that a vast majority of ice climbers are not a bunch of rogue, selfish idiots. I would offer that most of us didn't even know about the cabin and would have immediately condemed it if we had. Looking back, I know now that skiers have been using it too. Earlier this season, I've run into college-student, backcountry shredders headed out of the parking lot after dark with a storm moving in and with no bivi gear. And here I was thinking they were hard men... The negative publicity this generates for ice climbers is unquestionably serious but it also demonstrates, in my opinion, the selfish idiocy of those involved. That is, if the "stranded" ice climbers knew full-well of the cabin and intended on using it, why didn't they tell the folks they drove in with? Did they not want to let the secret of the cabin out? If they had told them about the cabin option, their friends probably wouldn't have called in the SAR. Not only is it negligent to be responsible for such a needless SAR effort but I would suspect that maybe even their precious cabin would not have been discovered. This is a wonderful example of karma kickback. Serves 'em right. Although Montana has a long traditon of this sort of thing on our public lands, I sincerely hope the Missoula court throws the book at them, charges them fully for the SAR effort and requires that they personally haul out every scrap of crap (including their own) that they left there. A CALL TO ACTION: I urge anyone reading this forum to log in and post a reply on this thread condeming ice climbers (or any users for that matter) building or using illegal cabins in Hyalite or on any other public lands. It doesn't have to be long or eloquent. A simple sentence will suffice. Please include your full name and phone number. If nothing else, we can provide the powers that be with some anecdotal evidence of ice climber responsibility and stewardship towards Hyalite. Also, if the court doesn't require them to dismantle the cabin, I second Conrad and offer my services to the Forest Service to do so. Any one else care to join us? Even though we don't know the ultimate fate of winter access for Hyalite, after all the efforts we've put into the travel planning process, it would be a tragedy to see the potentail for improved access (which would negate your "need" for the cabin) wiped out in the ninth hour by such a foolish act. Regards, Joe Josephson 582-7908

The IC for the SAR group knew about the cabin in the morning, before the group left Perkins. At the time it didn't make sense to me that they were so confident that the SAR would be over by Noon (and it was), but they must have been pretty sure the kids were in the cabin. Driving in we saw the two climbers with the IC at the end of the plowed road. They seemed to be in remarkably good shape for two people who spent the night out in -20 temps. Now that makes sense, too. While I admire the energy spent to construct the cabin, it was certainly misdirected and could ultimately result in degraded winter access and damage to the reputation of all climbers in the canyon, something several folks here have worked hard to buoy. I wonder if there is a way to direct that energy into something beneficial to everyone, rather than such selfish (and hopefully ignorant) acts? Is there any organized outreach (this is our canyon, this is how we take care of it, etc) between the well-regarded established locals (thinking Conrad, JoJo, etc) and the MSU students? An ounce of prevention and all... Lastly, a lot of people were at best inconvenienced and at worst put their lives at risk for this unnecessary SAR. Personally, I get to climb 3-4 days/year at Hyalite and this cost us one half of one of those precious days. It seems to me that some form of public apology is in order. To sum up: Climbing good. Cabin bad. - Loren

I'll second the motion for full disclosure and public apology. I've seen some backcountry lean-to structures for skiing, and a few modestly established "huts", but they share a similar characteristic; They are discretely tucked away, well into the middle of nowhere. This thing goes so far beyond that theory that these people deserve everything they could get. It really gets me that this was perpetrated by college students, who may or may not have to deal with the possibility of Hyalite access going away once they graduate. I'm really glad that the stranded climbers, if they were indeed, had a place to stay and no one was hurt. But there is no justification for a building that size, in such proximity to a Trailhead. As if that place weren't civilized enough with the road, the flat gravel trail to start up. These guys are going to get whatever punishment the law hands down, then they get to be called lightweights of the ice climbing community for needing a cabin when everyone else is getting along just fine without. brenon savell 582-1437

Anonymous (not verified)

Tue, 12/20/2005 - 12:44

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I want to commend those who have posted a response to the recent irresponsible behavior of climbers in Hyalite Canyon. I agree with Joe Josephson that this accentuates the increasing popularity of Hyalite Canyon and the need to protect it as a climbing resource. I, however, would take this statement a step further. Over the last 5 to 10 years the number of climbers in our area has grown exponentially. Thus, all of our local climbing areas are seeing a dramatic increase in use and abuse. This increase in use has not gone unnoticed. To land managers, the F.S. in particular, our activities are seen mostly as unnecessary and they typically want to close us down. In Montana, like most areas, access to climbing is limited. As a community we cannot afford to lose our resources as the result of an irresponsible few. At the moment, our climbing access hangs in a precarious position. Climbers are on the verge of losing historical access to places like Hyalite (Practice Rock included) and Bozeman Pass. Why? Because as a whole, land managers see climbers as a small group of dirtbags with a disproportionate number of demands. It is time to change this impression and take dramatic action. We can begin by publicly denouncing the recent actions in Hyalite Canyon. Post something here, but using this website may not be enough. Think about letters to the editor or other high-profile venues. We must also consider policing ourselves internally. This means when you hear of or see someone doing something stupid (see Doug Chabot?s earlier posting for one definition of ?something stupid??) you should do something about it. Most climbers cherish the wildness that Montana has to offer. These qualities are not fortified by ditching our partners and building secret cabins in the backcountry, which are nothng more than immature acts of cowardice. We assume the majority does not condone the irresponsible actions of these few people. However, it is equally irresponsible to allow them to continue tainting our reputation. We must remove our dirtbag veil, accept our newfound responsibility and do something to protect the present and future of climbing in Montana. Thank you. Tom Kalakay 587-4605

I am simply responding to Mr. Josephson's request to castigate those involved with the illegal cabin and to show my support. I was doubly affected by these peoples actions. I drove down from Helena sunday morning with a partner that had driven all the way from Great Falls. It seems that there is a trend in Hyalite and the Bozeman area of selfishness. This is obvious by the recent events. Most places in the world where alpinism is king this selfish attitude is noticably absent, partially in part to the sense of community among climbers(regardless of color language or ability) and the notion that things can and do go wrong and you never know when you might need somebody to help get you out of the rimaye or crevasse or to help splint a broken bone (or give you a ride home when its 20 below). We are all in this together, there is enough misunderstanding of our community as it is. I have witnessed this selfishness in the last few years in Hyalite in simple things such as asking another group in the parking lot where they are going for the day? As often as not. I am simply met with attitude or even insults. Rarely are they faces that I have seen there for years. I only wrote this because I wanted to show my support in the forum and those actions of a few cost me a whole day of my time. Its all about having fun. We're all in this together. Thanks for the eight hour drive. Jamie Clark 406-431-3548 P.S. I'd be happy to help dismantle the cabin and help repair any damage with the regulatory agencies.

I would like to support the comments of Joe Josephson, Tom Kalakay and others in condemning the action of the irresponsible ice climbers who built and used the cabin. My parnter and I were part of the SAR on Sunday and we happened to be the ones who "found" the missing climbers. In reality, we simply ran into them walking down the trail as we walked up. The existence of the cabin now explains to us why they didn't try to walk down the road Saturady night after being "abandoned", i.e., they knew the cabin was there. We were amazed at how good the pair looked after a night out at those temps. Obviously, they did NOT spend the night out. We talked with them for a good ten minutes, offering food and drink since we thought they must be cold, hungry, and thirsty, and they never mentioned the cabin but told us instead that they had bivy gear with them and just built a fire. My partner and I had planned to climb on Sunday in Hyalite anyway so the SAR effort, which ended happily, really had very little personal impact on us. However, there were many others who were up all night preparing for the full scale SAR believing there were climbers truly in need. Those volunteers are to be commended and the two climbers who were "missing" in the cabin, and the others who built and used the cabin, should be ashamed that they caused so much needless effort on the part of others. We can all hope that cases such as this do not diminish the dedication and effort of the entire SAR community in the future. Steve Mock 683-5301

I participated in the "rescue" of the two "lost climbers", and my partner and I were the ones who found them as they were hiking out. We wondered at the time how they could be in such good shape after a forced bivi out at ?25F. When we asked them about what happened, they had a fabricated story seemingly all prepared ? why they didn?t hike out the road to window rock cabin, why they didn?t leave a note, why they hiked way back UP the trail to bivi, etc. Obviously they knew what they had done was wrong. At the time we were simply glad to have found them OK, so didn?t question the inconsistencies of their story. I can now only assume for their sake that the stay in the cabin was indeed unplanned from the start. Steve and I were going climbing that morning anyway, so it wasn't a huge inconvenience for us, although it meant we couldn?t do our planned route. Many other people however were out all night hiking around searching for the "poor lost climbers". A helicopter was preparing to lift off to do an aerial search just as we found them. Although most of the people involved with the search were volunteers, there was still a substantial cost in real dollars from our limited SAR budget. I just hope the two people realize what they put others through by their stupidity. I also hope we can still get a good response from SAR volunteers the next time some climbers are ?lost?. BTW - thanks to everyone that helped with this mission! As to the builders/users of the illegal hut: you've done more damage to our relationship with the Forest Service than you can imagine. Do you think that our access to climbing is guaranteed? Think again - the FS can shut down access to any ice or rock climb at the drop of a hat, and in fact have come close to doing so in the recent past over much smaller issues than this. A simple primitive trail to Blackline nearly shut down all climbing in the Gallatin canyon. And you guys somehow thought it would be OK to build an illegal climbers hut? With the number of climbers these days, we must all abide by the rules, or a few bad eggs will cause all of us to loose access. This will mean self-enforcement: if you see someone that?s out of line, straighten ?em out. I will state for the record that many of the other climbers involved in the rescue were people who, like me, have been ice climbing up hyalite canyon for 20 years or more. They were ALL puzzled when told of this ?warming hut? ? none of them had heard of it. If they had, I?m sure it would not still be there. The local climbing community is generally very responsible, especially the old guard. Those of you that aren?t need to shape up before you ruin it for everyone else. Obviously, the hut must go, and the area around it must be restored. Unfortunately, it will then be up to SMCC and the rest of the climbing community to try to patch up relationships with the FS. Time will tell what the final impact of this incident will be, but it sure won?t help our cause.

I have to condemn this act of selfishness. I hope the FS can see that this was the act of immature college students, and is not represenative of the climbing community as a whole. Why would anyone want to build a warming cabin when there is an established FS cabin less then a mile away? Who is the responsible parties for the cabin - I think the individuals should be named in letters to the editors, etc. - if it's not already, it will soon be in the public record when they go before the magistrate.

Hello All, I roundly support everything that has been said here. The private construction of a hidden structure in Hyalite was unnecessary and self-serving. It reflects poorly on the individuals who built it and climbers in general. Its dissappointing about the climbers who returned late on Saturday night to find that their ride had abandoned them. While these climbers didn't build the cabin, they knew about it, so they went there to hunker down that night. [b]However, I should emphasize: Those climbers weren't responsible for the construction of the cabin.[/b] As I understand it, they weren't even responsible for the discovery of the cabin ( apparently, it had been discovered in the fall by FS Law Enforcement.). The worst thing they did was to not disclose where and how they had spent the night to the rescuers. I think its important that we distinguish between these two. The folks who built that structure did climbers a dis-service by representing us very poorly. However, the guys that came off their climb late only to find that their ride had abandoned them did nothing but look for the closest warm place to hunker down for the night. The miscommunication which resulted in that case was unfortunate and avoidable, but lets remember- if you really were injured in Hyalite, you'd want the SAR group & Sheriff to do its reasonable, safest utmost to find and help you. Including closing the road up Hyalite, if they think necessary. The missing climbers didn't do anything illegal or selfish. Yes, some folks got nixed out of a day of climbing after a long drive, but I think we need to accept this possiblity as a reasonable. I just wanted to make the distinction between these two different groups clear. As far as helping to mend bridges between the climbing community and the FS, we all have a bit of work to do. Add my name to the list willing to remove the cabin ( although it may need to remain for a bit as evidence, or the constructors may be ordered to remove it. Please, nobody tamper with evidence.) Kudos and thanks to the SAR group, bot hthe Sheriff's Posse and the technical climbing group, for all the hard work. Lets all try and keep those guys from having to do anything for us.

Its great to see the outcry and genuine public response of the climbing community on this issue. I can feel alot of deep anger in some of the responses above, and only hope that folks can find resolve in their own separate ways. I tend to always want to move forward, as the past is history. I would respect the responsible party if some sort of response to this issue was made. it sure does suck to be in the gun sight, but man-up and explain yourselves. if you don't, it seems like some folks will make it a point to see you hang. I love Hyalite very much. To have it pulled away would drastically affect the quality of life i live. count me in for the dismantling of this cabin, and anything else i can do to restore our GOOD reputation as a climbing community in Bozeman. Chris Awe 579-2960 ps- is SMCC still meeting 1st Tue of the month?

I am very disspointed in the folks who built the illegal cabin, as well as any who knew about it and didn't suggest that such a structure would be problematic at best. Unless this cabin was "super-secret" it does reflect on us (the ice climbing community). I'm taking this a little hard, because I was feeling that due to the efforts of many in the climbing community, including Tom K, Conrad, Jim E., Jojo and many more our group was starting to come together as a positive force, both socially and politically. This doesn't negate any of that work, but it sure shows that we have a lot more to do in terms of educating our own community. If neccasary, I will gladly help remove this "cabin". cheers, HJ Schmidt 586-4467

[quote="jimurl"] ... discovered in the fall by FS Law Enforcement.). The worst thing they did was to not disclose where and how they had spent the night to the rescuers. ... .[/quote] Before we could even suggest it, they told us "yeah, we probably should have left a note at the trailhead." But in fact they did not leave a note - what could they have said? "We're safe - we're up staying in the secret cabin"? So the fact that they did not disclose things afterwards is really not the worst thing they did: the fact that they could have prevented the whole incident by leaving a note, but chose not to, that's worse. And it wound up having more consequences than just a few climbers not getting to drive up hyalite that day. I guess that's the main thing that gets my dander up. As I mentioned before, we need to police ourselves BEFORE the FS finds out about this kind of crap. If you know about an illegal cabin, know exactly where it is, you don't report it, and actually use it, then you are certainly supporting it and need to share some of the blame for its existence. -Chuck

I condemn anyone building or using illegal cabins in Hyalite or on any other public lands. No climbers I have talked to were aware of this illegal cabin. If you need help removing it, contact me. Dave Sturn 439-0497

I can only imagine what the conversation on this website would have sounded like back in the early 90's when the diversions started to form. Obviously a bad idea to build a real structure on Nalt. forest land without permission. To further the conversation in a positive way maybe we can take this as an opportunity to do something creative with the cabin. What is the Forest Service policy on structures made on Natl forest land? Are they all destroyed? While I don't have any idea how hut systems are started, for years I've wished we had a hut system to use in our natl. forests much like our Canadian friends to the north. Is there a way that we can work with the forest service to take responsibility for the structure that has now been built instead of dismantling the cabin. For chatter on this topic let's jump to Spray! Kristoffer Erickson

Regarding the building of the cabin, I agree with the positions taken by the preceding postings and will join any volunteer action desired by the Forest Service. What I will relate below strongly underscores (and reinforces postings by Swenson and Mock) the fact that the presence of the cabin was known only to a small minority of climbers. The purpose of this posting is primarily to add a further perspective as one of the 7 climbers of the Alpine Rescue Group (one of about 10 volunteer specialist groups comprising Gallatin County Search and Rescue) who responded to the call about 9:30 pm last Sat. night. (The Alpine members are climbers like everyone else who visits this web site, motivated by the conviction that climbers should be rescued by climbers if the need arises.) Although Jim Earl is correct that the overdue climbers were not responsible for building the cabin, the "secret" nature of the cabin played a significant role in needlessly prolonging the search operation (by about 10 hours, thereby causing the road closure). Everything is connected. (More on this later in this posting). There is a separate issue of responsible behavior when your partners are overdue. See the excellent posting in Spray by Joel, which should be [b]required reading[/b] for all those who are relatively new to climbing outdoors. The question of whether the overdue climbers were in need of rescue could have been resolved with reasonably little time and effort and there would not have been a 911 call. Back to what happened when the search/rescue people arrived at the trail head Saturday night around midnight. Since that time I have not been able to talk to the two climbers who returned from the Dribbles ahead of their two out-of-town friends (who were on Avalanche Gulch). From conversations with them then, we learned that they apparently drove out to call 911 after waiting only an hour because (I am guessing) of the extreme cold (greatly increasing the danger if someone were immobilized) and because they heard some yelling in mid afternoon that got them to thinking might have been calls for help. They drove back to the trailhead immediately after placing the 911 call and?in most respects?cooperated fully with the rescue people, even telling us of the[i] [b]possible[/b][/i] existence the cabin and that the missing climbers might be there. It appears, however, that they were not completely forthcoming. None of us, including some younger more active climbers, had heard of the cabin. Still, after a trip to the base of Avalanche to verify that the missing climbers had indeed gotten down safely, we looked more carefully for tracks leading off the trail to the cabin with no success. No wonder. One of the Alpine team returned on Monday armed with a GPS and UTM coordinates (obtained from the Forest Service early Sun morning). He and his friend walked past the access trail twice before finally noticing that the trail was concealed by a small tree that had been cut and repositioned over the beginning of the trail. Since the "missing climbers" were able to find this nicely concealed access a mile up the trail in the dark, I conclude that the necessary information was given to them by their hosts when all four were hiking to the Dribbles Sat. morning. Presumably the secrecy of the cabin compromised their judgment and integrity. Obviously, the right thing would have been to share the complete information with the search team so we could have immediately checked the cabin. Because they did not, the operation went on for another 10 hours, causing the road closure. We returned to Bozeman at 6 AM, not knowing for sure whether the climbers were in a life-threatened situation or not. There we learned finally (from the FS) of the cabin's existence and location. A fresh Alpine team went back up at 8 AM (with support from the Snowmobile and Posse groups) hoping to find the climbers in the cabin, but prepared to perform a high-angle rescue with helicopter support. The missing climbers were met as they were hiking out the main trail at about 10 am. (see postings by Swenson and Mock) If my impression of what went down is not entirely correct, I urge those involved to set the record straight.

All: Having been one who biled up to Hyalite at 2300 at 25 below and subsequently spent the night out hiking up to the base of the dribbles and to avalanche gulch looking for the said "lost climbers" and then looking for them the rest of the night until we left the canyon to reconvene for yet another attempt at 0700 to go up again and look, I can give you a perspective that concurs both Chuck and Steve. Mobilizing a technical search and potential high angle rescue on ice at night at 25 below zero is difficult at best and not something that anyone wants to do, me included. However, part of the reason that I am involved is because of the fact that at one time or another it is gonna be one of the boys who get injured and cannot get down nor out. We do this out of respect for our friends and fellow climbers. It is, in essence, a responsibility on our part to lend our expertise and help if one of us does unfortunately get hurt climbing in the mountains. Even though it was exceedingly cold, it had to be done and I would not hesitate to mobilize again and do this again if need be. I think I speak for the others involved as well. The next morning when we regrouped with fresh faces, we confirmed the rumors of said cabin. None of us knew of this thing and in fact when the sheriffs dept mentioned it we all scoffed as if no way, collectively we had all been up there enough to have known about this. All wrong. If we would have known about it, searching there initially would have been target and not in the periphery. It would have saved all of us a brutally cold night out. Next morning when we all went in for round 2, our initial group split up, one going to the climb one to the "cabin" with" GPS coordinates to locate. We were .25 miles away when Chuck ran into the 2 folks hiking down the trail. All safe, we called it off and went back not bothering to continue to the cabin. It was clear and cold and I had been up all night. When we got back to the trailhead and questioned the 2, they were adamant that they did not stay at the hut. Personnaly, I was amazed that in those conditions they were so good. Sorry. I rode out of the canyon with them for the 45 minutes it took to drive and they still were clear that they did not stay there. Well, we know that is not the case. In the end all was well, they were alive and well and we as a SAR group were relieved that it was a cold night out only and nothing more. Conclusions: All above posts are dead on with respect to land use, resposibility, stewardship, owning up for our actions as climbers. The old guard is still around and all the young crowd can learn from the hard years of service provided. My belief is that those involved with the construction should be prosecuted and made to reclaim the area. Is there any question otherwise? Though the missing pair may not have been responsible for the construction, they are responsible for the poor judgement they displayed and the risk that the entire SAR team was subjected to. Luckily no one was injured in this but this was certainly a possibility. Again to all in the climbing community, use judgement and respect the role of others when plans are made when climbing in our backyard. Thanks to all involved. Best, Alan Oram

Hello everyone, My name is Ben Gagosian and I was one of the two climbers who called SAR. I wanted to explain a bit about our position and thinking during that day. We arrived up at the trailhead at about 10:30 AM and hiked into the dribbles area. We arrived at the base of dribbles at about Noon. My partner and I planned on doing the Dribbles route while the other team we hiked in with(and gave a ride to) were planning on climbing Responsible after the Avalance Gulche pitches. We proceded up our climb and were starting the second pitch before our friends even started hiking over to their climb. We thought their late start was a bit odd, but overlooked it at the time and continued climbing. We reached the top and rapped the route. We reached the ground as the sun was setting and had a quick snack and warmed ourselves with our extra clothes. After packing up our gear we sat and waited below dribbles for 45 minutes to an hour. We began to feel the cold and decided we needed to start moving. Our next point of action was to hike to the base of Avalance to see if we could see any sign of our friends. We hiked the short distance to the base and waited for another 20 minutes, screaming up at them. We heard no reply and decided to hike to the car and wait for them in the parking lot. We proceeded to the car and arrived shorty before 7 pm. We waited an additional hour in the parking lot until 8 pm. We began to worry because of the extreme temps outside and didn't feel like we should venture out in an unfamiliar area in the dark with our already wet gear. (We are both from Oregon and this was our first time in the Hyalite area). I noticed we have continually been criticized for making the call and for leaving our friends, however I feel this criticism is unwarranted. It is easy to look back and say we shouldn't have done what we did, but at the time we were simply afraid for our friends. One of the most frustrating things about this entire ordeal has been the fact that everyone has been second guessing our motives and decisions. As far as the whole cabin/hut situation goes, my climbing partner and I knew that it existed but had no idea where it was. While hiking up the trail, our friends pointed out a side trail where the hut was located, but it was only ini passing and they did not show us the specific location. We provided the SAR team with all of the knowledge we knew about the cabin, and even told them that we thought our friends were in it (once we knew that their pack was gone from the base of the Avalanche Gulche). To say that we didn't cooperate completely or that we withheld information is absurd. I insisted to go out on a snowmobile myself to try and find the trail to the cabin. WE WERE SIMPLY CONCERNED ABOUT OUR FRIENDS! So i apologize if we wasted peoples times and efforts. I appreciate how fast the SAR team mobilized and respect all of the team for their efforts. I do believe that we made a mistake in not properly communicating with our friends about what to do if either team was late. However, our unfamiliarity with the area and the extreme cold warranted our decision. As far as the cabin goes, I do not agree with its construction, however I am extremely thankful that it was there and that our friends knew about it. Ben Gagosian 503-385-5650

Being a member of the "younger" Hyalite climbing community (an MSU student myself), I am very saddened by this recent news. Over the last two years my friends and I have only begun to discover the magic Hyalite possesses. I would just like to chime in, and speak for my group of climbing friends as well, and say that I fully agree with the previous comments made in this topic. I believe that the ?lost? climbers (from what I have heard) acted irresponsibly, and put others in unneeded risk, and I believe the builders of that cabin should receive full repercussions for their actions. A thank you to JoJo, Conrad, and everyone who has worked so hard for Hyalite, though it may seem like it at times, your work does not go unnoticed by the younger Hyalite user group. Eric Lamanna

I would be surprised to see a contrary point of view on this forum, but it is still encouraging to see a coherent community attitude regarding the so-called secret cabin. Where I am still stuck for the time being (in Seattle) consensus does not happen often in the climbing community. In the early days of Hyalite ice climbing the attitude would have been very different regarding an illicit cabin. We would have hidden it much better and actually kept it a secret. However, it never even occurred to us to build one. We really only wanted a snowmobile so we could get in and out easier. Now the road is plowed so much farther in. And the only cabin we cared about was the Lloyd?s cabin in the Humbugs, which was burned down (allegedly by hunters) long ago. Even though my vote does not really count because I won't be a Bozeman climber again until next spring when I finally move back home, I agree with the consensus: Stay out of the cabin and if given a chance tear it down and leave no trace. Dave Vaughan

[quote="bgswing14"]Hello everyone, As far as the cabin goes, I do not agree with its construction, however I am extremely thankful that it was there and that our friends knew about it. Ben Gagosian 503-385-5650[/quote] Ben Thanks for the clarification. There is always much mis-information and speculation in an event like this, and the picture of what actually happened is becoming more clear. I personally have not criticized your decision to call 911 - that's always a tough call, easy to second guess, and the conditions that night were indeed extreme. If you did give SAR all of the information you knew, then I personally have no beef with you. I still maintain my suspicions about your friends, however. Would they have kept climbing, traversing over to the base of RFM at sunset (as they told me they did) if they didin't know there was a cabin to retreat to? Perhaps part of the reason they "needed" the cabin is because they climbed too late knowing it was an option. And as far as your being extremely glad it was there - why is that? From the trailhead where your friends hiked (or said they did) it would have been about the same walk to a LEGAL cabin at window rock. Or if they would have simply hung out at the parking lot for a while (they both had warm down jackets & pants) they would have been picked up later by you or the SAR. So - calling 911 when you did may or may not have been appropriate. But the cabin did nothing but cause problems, put other people at risk, and certainly did nothing to "save" your friends in any way. -Chuck

I am simply glad that they found shelter from the cold. I agree the cabin did cause many problems and will probably continue to do so. As far as I know they climbed the lower traverse pitch into Responsible and then retreated down the climb because the 2nd reached the belay as it was getting dark. I didn't know about the legal cabins up the road. Once again...thanks to everyone for their efforts, needed or not. Have a safe and wonderful season. -Ben

This is Joel, the author of the spray response to ?ditching climbers? as well as one of the two climbers that SAR was called for last Saturday night, Dec. 17, 2005. A humble thanks to the Gallatin County Search and Rescue, comprising the alpine rescue team as well as those known as the ?posse,? for all the volunteered time, energy, money, warm gatorade and protein bars. The purpose of the following is to set the record straight. Ben has already revealed himself in order to thwart the malicious attacks on the four of us that ensued Chabot?s Illegal Cabin posting. However, besides myself, there are two other climbers who I am speaking for and whose names will remain anonymous. I am assuming everyone has read Ben?s posting and what follows is a continuation/ clarification of what he posted. I became aware of the hut recently and by mistake. I am aware that such structures are illegal on FS land. This is why I delayed in disclosing our whereabouts the night of the SAR. At that point I was in fear of being mistaken for one of those who built or maintained the hut. Furthermore, there are hefty legal sentences associated with these things and I intended to disclose such information to the authority, in this case, the FS detective and the Sheriff in charge of CI. The SAR, no disrespect intended, was on a need to know basis at that point in my opinion. More on this later?.. While hiking up from the main Hyalite trailhead the four of us discussed the nature of the climbs we intended to do. The long pitches of Dribbles, which Ben and T. climbed, and the short step of ice in Avy Gulch combined with the traverse and climb of Responsible led me to believe that my partner and I would be descending after Ben and T and addressed this issue. During the approach I told Ben and T. about a hut I had recently stumbled upon and showed them the entrance to the trail with the, unbeknownst to me, planted sapling. There were no plans made to spend the night there. Furthermore, the hut had no influence on our climb the rest of the day until we returned to an empty parking lot. The daytime temps on Saturday weren?t that warm. Our party of four arrived at the base of dribbles a bit damp from the hike up and began racking up in the sunshine. It took my partner and me a few more minutes than Ben and T. because we had to wait to re-warm ourselves and rack rock and ice gear before traversing into the shade of Avy gulch. Furthermore, I recommended that the pair belay at the second step of dribbles in order to make the ice alcove belay at the base of the headwall based on my knowledge of the climb, having climbed it twice the week before and once previous this spring. This explains why we didn?t begin hiking until Ben and T. were together at the belay, presumably ?starting the second pitch.? This is not to say that we were lazy or slow as other posting may have alluded. I placed two screws in the ice of Avy gulch on the same level of the start of Dribbles and moved quickly to the first tree belay. I placed picks and front-points in ice under a layer of snow on the second pitch. Slinging a few trees off to the side along the way brought me to the second tree belay, which seemingly supports the large roof. I continued out on belay just in case anything slid, thus slowing my partner and I a small amount, but the added caution felt right. We continued to the right of the main gully in order to avoid the more open avy chute and crossed the chute one final time, on belay, near the base of the upper pitches. This is the start of the traverse to RFM. When my partner and I reached the ridge before the second gully left of Avy we heard jubilant calls assumed to be Ben and T. and responded with the same joyous hoodeeehooo!! The sun was still high in the sky and I estimated we had a few hours until it disappeared behind Maid of the Mist Mountain. We continued our traverse and arrived in view of RFM with at least two hours of daylight left. I chose to traverse to the ice from the left via the 5.2 ledge. Snow covered much of the 3rd class shallow groove, broad ledge, and traverse. Maybe I over protected, but the three knife-blades and TCU?s ranging from 00-1, with screamers, did little to boost my confidence in the weak layer that created the traverse ledge. It took some time. I made a 3-screw belay in the ice alcove and brought my partner up. By the time she arrived it was getting pretty dark. I had been making a V-thread while belaying her on a Reversino and was in the process of threading the rope to rappel when she arrived. I chose to descend because I knew Ben and T. were probably doing the same, minus the traverse back. The ice above looked sooo good. I had no premonition of spending a night in the hut. I simply bailed because I knew friends would be waiting. I like to think that I?ve been doing this sort of thing long enough to know when to head down. I assumed that T., whom I?ve climbed with on technical terrain before and work with, had faith in my judgment. I also assumed that we were both on the same page as far as climbers rescuing themselves. T. knew that my partner and I had recently completed an EMT equivalent and were capable of handling ourselves. (I?m not placing blame here T., simply informing Bozeman of the assumptions that I made). If I had driven up separately and knew that I wouldn?t be overdue until LATE that night, I might have continued. My partner and I pulled our ropes and quickly traversed back to Avy gulch. We rapped from the two trees and arrived at the base of the ice step to find our pack that we had stashed at the bottom of dribbles and the poles that we had borrowed from Ben and T gone. That meant that those two had finished their climb and brought our pack over. Thanks guys! We knew they were headed down, but how far ahead were they? We ate a sandwich each and chewed some H2O and continued our hustled descent. We arrived at the trailhead approx. two hours after dark. It was empty. It was cold and getting colder. There was no note. We sat on our packs and discussed the situation. Our conclusion was that Ben and T. had returned from their climb much earlier than us and had grown tired of waiting. Maybe there was another car in the parking lot when they were there and were banking on us getting a ride out with them. We dismissed this option. We settled on the idea that they assumed we would spend the night in the hut and they would arrive first thing in the morning with hot coffee and food. This didn?t make much sense either because we told them that it was illegal and made no premonition of spending the night there but couldn?t figure out why else they would have left us. . We had just busted our asses to get down and meet Ben and T. We were damp from running as well as bewildered and angry, not to mention hungry, thirsty, and tired. It was cold. We couldn?t just sit there even though we had down jackets on and I had belay pants. After all, we thought they weren?t coming back. They didn?t leave a note. We assumed, since they took off, that they knew we would be in the hut. Why else would they leave us? SAR didn?t cross our minds. We didn?t leave a note. The idea of Window Rock didn?t cross our minds. See ??on ditching climbers? in Spray (Shouldn?t there be some sort of emergency phone in W. Rock or the trailhead.) If there wasn?t a hut with a wood-burning stove we would?ve started walking down the road. The hut complicates matters. After thinking about this issue for quite some time I?ve come to the conclusion that I should?ve started hiking down the road. It goes against my values to stay in such an illegal shelter. I?ve learned from my Ecology degree from the Univ. of MT how humans, as organisms, interact with their environment. The hut has a negative effect on the ?natural? state of the drainage. I am ashamed to have used it. This is all hindsight, 20/20. We woke the next morning and headed out, running into SAR on the way. We knew it was illegal to stay in the hut and didn?t want to be associated with those who built or maintained it, so we said we had bivied. I apologize for the misinformation. In hindsight, we should have told the truth. As we all know, climbing often takes place on a time-line that is very different from the one that dictates, for instance, what time one should arrive at real job. Too many confounding variables prevent climbing from following these rigid time-lines of our society. It's not uncommon to be 2-3 hours, or more, "LATE" returning from a climb. Had our partners waited minutes longer, the situation would have been avoided. Their call to SAR may or may not have been premature (I?m not judging anyone). To their credit, Ben and T. came back to the base of Avy gulch to realize that our pack was gone. Seeing this, it also became apparent to them that we were probably at the cabin. They told SAR that we were probably in the cabin and apparently SAR did not believe them that there was a cabin. I can?t blame them for being skeptical. The FS detective we spoke with enclosed knowledge of the cabin and admittedly should have provided that information to SAR when he became aware of the situation the night before!!! Obviously there was a lot of miscommunication that went on between the various groups involved in this issue. Hopefully we can all take knowledge learned from this event and use it to improve the dynamic of future SARs. On a personal note, we would like to thank the SAR for an outstanding response. It?s wonderful to know that if a situation was out of our control, it would have been handled extremely well by a very talented group of people. We would also like to formally apologize for not reporting the cabin. We are just passers through the Bozeman area and didn?t realize the magnitude of the situation we were dealing with. After reading the posts I?m much more aware of the issue at hand, especially the relationship between local climbing community and the Forest Service. Props to the old guard and the new ones on maintaining this relationship. Again, humble thanks again to the Gallatin County Search and Rescue!

Well, The FS will do what the FS will do. In the grand scheme of things, no one was hurt, and no real crimes were commited by climbers this last weekend. Who were the people that the FS busted at the cabin? The criminals here are the people that built the cabin in the first place. The FS knew about the cabin this summer and didn't do anything about it - so what's the real issue here? Some climbers stayed in it? The FS thinks climbers built it? Seems like SAR has more to be pissed at then the FS. Joel/Ben - could you guys write 'official' paper letters of thanks to the FS, newpapaer, SAR, and the Sheriff (I'm believe SAR is under the Sheriff's office down there). I know you've verbally thanked everyone involved, but a letter thanking everyone and stating the fact that you weren't involved in building the cabin is going to do alot more to repair any damage done then any letter's we can write - and it will stop any rumours rhat are ciculating - and I'm sure there are alot! - if you do this I won't have any beef with any of you guys... Mike

Thanks Ben and Joel for providing the details of what happened last Sat. I apologize to Ben and T. for suggesting they were not completely forthcoming. A few of us somehow got it backwards as to which team was familiar with the area. Also, in case it was not clear, in my earlier post I did try to convey my understanding of why you called 911 when you did. I know you did what you thought was best under the circumstances. --Pat

First, I am glad to hear that all parties are safe and sound. Ben and Joel, thanks for being up front on this forum and giving your sides of the story. And thanks for the whole SAR crew! It's wonderful to know that there is such a dedicated group of folks out there willing to help when the need arises. I just added two items to my pack: paper and pencil in a zip lock bag (pens freeze at -20!). I used to carry these religiously, and will start again. Communication seems to be the active word here. One sentence scribbled and posted on a pack or on the trail board would have saved a lot of effort. Access issues are always a challenge. It seems that it is very easy for one or two people to shut something down, while it takes a whole crew to maintain the relationships necessary to gain access, or to continue our current access privileges. Several years of effort went into regaining access to the Allenspur climbing area south of Livingston (thanks, by the way). More recently, years of effort to maintain access to cross country ski trails at Bridger Creek Golf Course in town that were 'dog friendly' (thanks for all the work Stewart!) were dissolved by one landowner who didn't want the dogs. Same can be said for hunting and fishing access. As more people discover the joy of the hills that we all know, these issues will only become more pertinent. Step up. Take a leap. Write a letter. Expose an illegal cabin. Pick up trash. Use existing trails. Put the ego aside and take pride in your community and actions. Best wishes to all over the holidays! -Tony Thatcher

While I can understand the need to address and even condemn the actions of those responsible for the construction of the cabin, we must resist the temptation to jump so quickly onto the PC bandwagon. In resent years the climbing community has grown accustom to being apologetic for every accusation special interest groups care to level at us. In doing so we have become timid and in some ways impotent, making us an easy target for public ridicule and scorn. Our obsession with obtaining public approval and acceptance has caused us to lose sight of the fact that we have a legitimate clam/right to use OUR public lands without having to justify our very existence. This is not to say we are above the law or that we shouldn?t concern ourselves with the image that our collective actions create. The climbing community has always had the challenge of balancing the wild, free and (at times) rebellious spirit with that of being courteous and responsible stewards of the resources we enjoy. My point is that we should view this incident within its proper perspective, not polarizing or blowing it out of proportion.

[quote="pony"]While I can understand the need to address and even condemn the actions of those responsible for the construction of the cabin, we must resist the temptation to jump so quickly onto the PC bandwagon. In resent years the climbing community has grown accustom to being apologetic for every accusation special interest groups care to level at us. In doing so we have become timid and in some ways impotent, making us an easy target for public ridicule and scorn. Our obsession with obtaining public approval and acceptance has caused us to lose sight of the fact that we have a legitimate clam/right to use OUR public lands without having to justify our very existence. This is not to say we are above the law or that we shouldn?t concern ourselves with the image that our collective actions create. The climbing community has always had the challenge of balancing the wild, free and (at times) rebellious spirit with that of being courteous and responsible stewards of the resources we enjoy. My point is that we should view this incident within its proper perspective, not polarizing or blowing it out of proportion.[/quote] Areas I've personally climbed at that are closed or have messed up access: Hueco Cave Rock, Nevada Belton, Texas Due to land managers perceptions of climbers. The members here can add many more to list, I'm sure. I don't want to see Hyalite to the list.

I too condemn the actions of those who built the illegal cabin. They should not be lumped into a stereotype of a community of people passionate about climbing ice. Please count me in to help remove the cabin and restore the area. If we end up organizing such an event I would be available to call and notify all of the individuals who offer to help. Amber Jean 222-9251 Livingston
Spray