Through Four More

Ted,

I'd say ask Kris Erickson. It's his route.

For what ever it's worth, my thoughts on this are somewhat mixed. On one hand I can see adding the bolts to make it accessible more often. But on the other hand, why should a route be accessible more often? Isn't waiting for it to come in and nabbing an ascent part of the anticipation, tenacity required and excitment? In the case of Mummy IV or Black Magic, just to name two, it's a big part of what makes those routes, those routes. But that said, Through Four More isn't the caliber of those routes either and could be considered an option as part of a multi-route circuit in that area. At the end of the day, I can see arguments going both ways. Hence, go back to the old school rules of asking the First Ascentionist.

Onward,

Joe

As JOJO said the best form of action would be to contact the FA on this.  Other wise you may be stepping on some toes here. Some may not care and even welcome the addition of the bolts as a safty issue, BUT some may not see it that way and wish for the route to remain as is. There well may be other methods of protection which is why bolts were never installed in the first palce.  There are quite a few purists around here and if there is a small crack or something for natural/removable pro you may end up pissing people off with the bolts.   So track down the FA and and see if is OK first.

Hey Ted - first off, thank you for posting this and seeking out the public opinion, rather than just acting - by doing this you're helping to set a positive example and keeping the tradition of respecting those who've come before alive, so good on ya.

Secondly, if you want my opinion, I say no, no, no.  

I say this not only because I advocate leaving well-established and frequently-repeated routes as they are, but also because I believe that our Hyalite traditions are fading quickly (and worth preserving) and, while I have no qualms with bolted routes specifically (I truly believe that there is a place for all styles.), I feel that much of the recent development has shifted the balance, if you will.  More and more new climbers are coming into the game under the impression that bolts = routes and vice versa.  Especially in a place like Hyalite, my personal take on climbing is that it's all about rising to the occasion. 

With the addition of many new routes that are bolted with the intention of providing beginner climbers with greater resources, I fear that there is a disservice to the community at large, those new climbers included.  To cite JoJo's argument, I feel that a large part of the experience is learning how to time conditions and work with the hand mother nature deals.  Besides, isn't it supposed to be challenging?  I mean it's ice climbing for God's sake...it's supposed to be sketchy.

Invariably, people will argue that I apply a double standard.  I do.  When establishing new routes near the top end of the spectrum, I believe that fixed protection is more acceptable.  This is in defense of raising the gymnastic bar, and, let's face it, the "possible."  If we apply the same acceptance to routes at the lower end of the grade spectrum, we dumb down the whole game.  Perception is everything:  if a new climber is introduced to the sport in an area where the standards are high, no doubt, said climber will perceive that to be what climbing is and start at a level previously perceived to be "impossible."  Over time, this climber will continue to improve and potentially raise standards themselves.  Should this same climber's first exposure be to closely placed fixed gear on "easy routes" (for lack of a better term), then their perception will be that climbing is safe, demands little commitment and should be for everyone.  This climber then is likely to move forward with that lesson and before long, tradition is lost, routes are retro-bolted, the commitment of the first (and every other) ascensionist is disrespected and the game dumbed down.

To me, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be dangerous and present a challenge by choice.  If people want safe, yet exhilarating entertainment, they should ride a roller coaster.

Check this out, "it's for real...America would be a better place if they did Man Yoga":  http://www.vimeo.com/33005769

This discussion defenitely goes both ways. But my non-expertness doesn't really warrant an opinion.

However, does this route warrant rap bolts? It doesn't top out and it's decently popular. Two years ago we climbed this route, then did some TR laps on it only to get done and one of the pitons had pulled (had a screw as part of the anchor though). Ended up v threading off which is what I'm guessing most people do...or should do?

 Hi Ted,

Bottom line, always ask the FA if you want to change a route. I hear your concerns but I think Pete has summed up a good portion of my thoughts on the issue and I would agree that we are needing to preserve some of the old to keep the orgnial experience in Hyalite. There are plenty of ice routes to climb in the area without adding bolts to Through Four More. If it isn't in climbable shape right now there is a good chance it will be in a month. In all the years since the FA, it has not formed with ice to ground only a few of the seasons.

In a similar story another climber asked about adding bolts to the exsisting route of Rocket Boy. Jim Earl whom was the one that led the 2nd crux pitch of the route simple responed by saying that no new bolts were needed. The person asking simply needed to wait for the route to come in all of the way or sack up for a thinner ascent. That person did in fact wait and and recently climbed the route. I would bet that his experience on Rocket Boy had a tremendous amount of value because of the wait he was required to give. Not that everyone is looking for this in their experince but it helps to reference a similar situation and one that seems to be coming up a lot lately with new climbers moving to the area. 

We all value our experiences in the mountains for the fun we have, lessons learned, and the experience of pushing our bodies and mind. Its a rare treat to be the person that spies the new line and opens a new route. With ice climbing the person that takes up the first ascent of the season gets a small glimpse into what that FA had for an experience.  Cherish the routes that aren't scared from scratches of tools and crampons, bolts, anchors and all other forms of permance from climbing before. The routes you get like this are wild and worth preserving. 

Kris

 Hey Ted - if you're talking about getting after it on the sharp end, then yeah, hells yeah. If you're meaning to aggressively clean otherwise, well, that's the same sort of issue, with regard to dumbing down. All it does is knock the natural element down to your comfort level and robs others of an otherwise real experience.

In my eyes, it's no different than me chipping holds on an existing route and justifying the act on the premise that the naturally occurring ones are too small for me to hold onto.

We simply must respect what a line has to offer or the true spirit of climbing will be lost. Is that the sort of thing you want to be party to, or would you prefer to put the time in and earn your ascent, as many before you have done?

This thing gets climbed all the time, as is. If you don't dig on natural routes, then please, just go to the gym, check out the ice park in Ouray or find a new game, don't start ruining what others have been enjoying for generations in the name of your convenience. 

 Maybe I should post this to the photo thread, but I figured I would put it here to add visual perspective to this debate.

This is what the conditions were like on December 28 of last year.

 Dude just leave it alone and climb something you can handle.